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TheDukeOfImagination commented at 2013-07-25 01:39:33 » #1366499
I agree with anon.1364286
Depends on the perspective of the world we are talking about
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I agree with anon.1364286
Depends on the perspective of the world we are talking about
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Anonymous commented at 2013-07-26 14:10:20 » #1367464
Seems like u guys dont understand at all.... in those fights its always the one with more reiatsu/chakra/haki/whatever ,which is in my opinion all the same.. , wins ... and no matter what, ichigo has more reiatsu/chakra/whatever + he is faster and has a sword... those attacks from luffy are maybe fast in the OP world but not in the Bleach world..
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Seems like u guys dont understand at all.... in those fights its always the one with more reiatsu/chakra/haki/whatever ,which is in my opinion all the same.. , wins ... and no matter what, ichigo has more reiatsu/chakra/whatever + he is faster and has a sword... those attacks from luffy are maybe fast in the OP world but not in the Bleach world..
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TheDukeOfImagination commented at 2013-07-27 01:07:52 » #1367750
Alright how bout we say this
Toriko is the dragonball z of this time
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Alright how bout we say this
Toriko is the dragonball z of this time
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Anonymous commented at 2013-07-27 09:27:23 » #1367913
Looking at this gif, seeing as this is the Ichigo that fought Grimmjow and got manhandled like a bitch by Grimmjow's bare hands ( And seeing how Luffy is physically far stronger than Grimmjow ), I'm pretty sure this gif is quite accurate.
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Looking at this gif, seeing as this is the Ichigo that fought Grimmjow and got manhandled like a bitch by Grimmjow's bare hands ( And seeing how Luffy is physically far stronger than Grimmjow ), I'm pretty sure this gif is quite accurate.
4 Points
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SSJ_GOD commented at 2013-07-31 17:24:25 » #1370875
i've read all the post on this pic and i've gotta say Anon#1364005 kills this. Unlike all of you this person went so deep into explaining why they believed Luffy Wins. This guy took information from both series and rolled with it. No one else even comes close to this guys post.
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i've read all the post on this pic and i've gotta say Anon#1364005 kills this. Unlike all of you this person went so deep into explaining why they believed Luffy Wins. This guy took information from both series and rolled with it. No one else even comes close to this guys post.
4 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2013-08-11 09:39:55 » #1377982
Well let's start with the easiest debate: Speed. Luffy is in a world that has far superior speed feats shown. Lightning speed feats were shown over 400 chapters ago from Enel, and Kizaru's lightspeed feats are well known. No one in Bleach has shown any speed feats anywhere near the speed of light which is 299.8 million metres per second. Luffy isn't light speed because we can't be certain that the Pacifista Laser's move at the speed of light, even Kizaru only moves at light speed when in light form, his attacks aren't 100% light speed because he applies varied mass' to each attack otherwise they wouldn't explode. But it's safe to assume that Luffy's precognition + reaction time and movement speed makes him capable of dodging near lightspeed attacks. Aizen blitzed everybody and Ichigo in Dangai managed to blitz Aizen, but they're not even close to light speed. If Gin wasn't lying about his Bankai's speed being 500x the speed of sound, we'd have an impressive speed feat from Bleach, but even that doesn't come close to light speed.
Destructive Capacity. Bleach fan's will look to Mugetsu and other Dangai feats which include hill busting from sword swings. Mugetsu however has a very poor area of effect as it works in a straight line and so can be easily dodged, especially with pre cog. This is also a 1 shot move which if it doesn't connect Ichigo can no longer continue to fight. Luffy's destruction of the Noah is an underrated feat by some because they don't consider the sheer size, mass, and durability of the Noah. It's island level in size, takes several 5,000 metre long sea kings to pull, and has survived 700 years under 10,000 metres of water pressure unscathed. Luffy was able to nearly destroy this before the sea kings took over, but it was stated that had they not intervened he would have completed the destruction. I think Luffy wins in DC, but Ichigo has the greater range remember, and Luffy still isn't able to sky walk so Ichigo has the aerial advantage too.
If we look at the two's unique skills/abilities there's not a lot in eithers toolkits that can completely change a fight, like a reality warping ability. Ichigo's biggest advantage is his range and ability to fly, a combination which can leave many match-ups into a stomp, but it's unfortunate for Ichigo that Luffy is faster than him and has Observation Haki which grants him pre cog. With a long range or arial spam tactic he'll never hit Luffy and would lose from exhaustion so he will have to fight close-mid range if he hopes to hit Luffy. Spiritual Pressure and the whole Shinigami's not being able to be seen debate is also very futile in a versus match-up because those kind of rules aren't consistently applicable across universes (a good example is how Brook's abilities work in the OP world, where apparently everyone can see ghosts). Ichigo is not so weak willed that Luffy's Conqueror's Haki will knock him out, and similarly Luffy is not so weak that Ichigo's spiritual pressure will affect him. I think the pre cog is the most important factor when it comes to abilities because Ichigo won't be able to catch Luffy off-guard, and being slower than luffy makes this that much worse.
Luffy is stronger than Ichigo, his Skyscraper feat alone is more impressive than anything Ichigo's ever done, and that was back at Water 7. Luffy's strength is one of his most impressive combat area's because of his fighting style. Shinigami are more Reiatsu focused.
Ichigo is far more intelligent than Luffy and more adaptive in combat situations because of this. They're both skilled in their own ways of combat, but Luffy tends to be more reckless/careless and is quite slow to adapt, though this has been changing.
Stamina, this has to go to Luffy just for Impel Down and Marineford. But Durability would have to go to Ichigo is this fight just because he's fighting Luffy with a sword, if he were punching Luffy it would be the opposite, but Luffy hasn't shown impressive durability when it comes to slicing attacks while Ichigo is durable all around.
It'll be a good fight, not a stomp by any means, but I think that Ichigo will be worn down by the successive punches he will receive from Luffy while Luffy will dodge most of Ichigo's attacks, certainly any critical ones. Ichigo's best chance would be to sacrifice his striking power for more speed in his attacks, but Armament Haki helps Luffy in his durability, which includes against slicing attacks although not as well. Ichigo could very intelligently launch a Getsuga from close range and catch Luffy off-guard a bit, but again, pre-cog sort of makes this futile. Luffy was able to predict Mihawk's projectile cuts before he even trained in Haki, now he can use it to dodge lasers with ease. Luffy wins with moderate difficulty.
2 Points
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Well let's start with the easiest debate: Speed. Luffy is in a world that has far superior speed feats shown. Lightning speed feats were shown over 400 chapters ago from Enel, and Kizaru's lightspeed feats are well known. No one in Bleach has shown any speed feats anywhere near the speed of light which is 299.8 million metres per second. Luffy isn't light speed because we can't be certain that the Pacifista Laser's move at the speed of light, even Kizaru only moves at light speed when in light form, his attacks aren't 100% light speed because he applies varied mass' to each attack otherwise they wouldn't explode. But it's safe to assume that Luffy's precognition + reaction time and movement speed makes him capable of dodging near lightspeed attacks. Aizen blitzed everybody and Ichigo in Dangai managed to blitz Aizen, but they're not even close to light speed. If Gin wasn't lying about his Bankai's speed being 500x the speed of sound, we'd have an impressive speed feat from Bleach, but even that doesn't come close to light speed.
Destructive Capacity. Bleach fan's will look to Mugetsu and other Dangai feats which include hill busting from sword swings. Mugetsu however has a very poor area of effect as it works in a straight line and so can be easily dodged, especially with pre cog. This is also a 1 shot move which if it doesn't connect Ichigo can no longer continue to fight. Luffy's destruction of the Noah is an underrated feat by some because they don't consider the sheer size, mass, and durability of the Noah. It's island level in size, takes several 5,000 metre long sea kings to pull, and has survived 700 years under 10,000 metres of water pressure unscathed. Luffy was able to nearly destroy this before the sea kings took over, but it was stated that had they not intervened he would have completed the destruction. I think Luffy wins in DC, but Ichigo has the greater range remember, and Luffy still isn't able to sky walk so Ichigo has the aerial advantage too.
If we look at the two's unique skills/abilities there's not a lot in eithers toolkits that can completely change a fight, like a reality warping ability. Ichigo's biggest advantage is his range and ability to fly, a combination which can leave many match-ups into a stomp, but it's unfortunate for Ichigo that Luffy is faster than him and has Observation Haki which grants him pre cog. With a long range or arial spam tactic he'll never hit Luffy and would lose from exhaustion so he will have to fight close-mid range if he hopes to hit Luffy. Spiritual Pressure and the whole Shinigami's not being able to be seen debate is also very futile in a versus match-up because those kind of rules aren't consistently applicable across universes (a good example is how Brook's abilities work in the OP world, where apparently everyone can see ghosts). Ichigo is not so weak willed that Luffy's Conqueror's Haki will knock him out, and similarly Luffy is not so weak that Ichigo's spiritual pressure will affect him. I think the pre cog is the most important factor when it comes to abilities because Ichigo won't be able to catch Luffy off-guard, and being slower than luffy makes this that much worse.
Luffy is stronger than Ichigo, his Skyscraper feat alone is more impressive than anything Ichigo's ever done, and that was back at Water 7. Luffy's strength is one of his most impressive combat area's because of his fighting style. Shinigami are more Reiatsu focused.
Ichigo is far more intelligent than Luffy and more adaptive in combat situations because of this. They're both skilled in their own ways of combat, but Luffy tends to be more reckless/careless and is quite slow to adapt, though this has been changing.
Stamina, this has to go to Luffy just for Impel Down and Marineford. But Durability would have to go to Ichigo is this fight just because he's fighting Luffy with a sword, if he were punching Luffy it would be the opposite, but Luffy hasn't shown impressive durability when it comes to slicing attacks while Ichigo is durable all around.
It'll be a good fight, not a stomp by any means, but I think that Ichigo will be worn down by the successive punches he will receive from Luffy while Luffy will dodge most of Ichigo's attacks, certainly any critical ones. Ichigo's best chance would be to sacrifice his striking power for more speed in his attacks, but Armament Haki helps Luffy in his durability, which includes against slicing attacks although not as well. Ichigo could very intelligently launch a Getsuga from close range and catch Luffy off-guard a bit, but again, pre-cog sort of makes this futile. Luffy was able to predict Mihawk's projectile cuts before he even trained in Haki, now he can use it to dodge lasers with ease. Luffy wins with moderate difficulty.
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Anonymous commented at 2013-08-13 09:26:51 » #1379233
There are a few problems with this guy’s logic. Ichigo’s strength in Dangai is for more complex when consider the following:
1. When Ichigo caught Aizen’s sword swing, he did it with ONE hand and he DIDN’T MOVE. He cancelled out all that force and power with one hand AND… most importantly did it without taking any damage.
2. When Ichigo destroyed the hills, he destroyed them without physically TOUCHING them; they were destroyed by the air pressure caused by his sword moving through the air.
3. When Ichigo first came to the soul society, he was able to block, again without moving, the swing of Jidanbo the gate keeper who can single handedly LIFT the giant gate using physical strength only.
4. Ichigo’s speed is greatly under played throughout the series, but when consider that the first time he went bankai he was able to move his hands at such high speeds that it was able deflect EVERY ONE of Byakuya’s blades. Blades that where coming at him at ALL directions!
5. The way the flash step works is never explained. It’s hard to know what his full speed is… BUT I personally think it’s not speed but rather ACCELERATION (the ability to go from stand still to LIGHT speed in the shortest time possible.). Yes I said light speed because thing about it, the first time he went bankai he was able to create multiple after images of himself. The captain of squad 2 was able to move so fast that she created more than 10 SOILD images of herself… in Dangai form Ichigo is much faster than that. Do you know how fast something needs to be moving in order for it to appear in two different places let alone more than 10…at the SAME time? To answer that question I’d have to go into great detail as to how the eye uses light to interpret objects … I won’t. All you need to know is that it’s crazy speed.
6. Destructive power. Here in order to understand just how powerful Ichigo’s attack is you need to understand spiritual pressure. In the fight with Kenpachi, it’s stated that when two pressures collide if the difference is too great, the stronger pressure can simply cancel out the damage done by the weaker one. (Ichigo even cut himself trying to cut Kenpachi.). When Ichigo’s father used getsuga on an earlier Aizen form it barely make a dent on him. Whereas in a higher transformation Ichigo spilt him in half. Not only that but when still kept going. It went through Aizen and carried on for a while.
7. When Ichigo used mugetsu, he was in the air and it still created a large damage area on the ground. That shows how far reaching the effects were.
8. Steel more durable than rock? TRUE. But is it more durable then spirit infused rock? They were fighting in the soul society remember...
9. In intelligence it’s Ichigo, not for what your reasons are, but because unlike Luffy who was tried tirelessly from a young age, Ichigo’s instinct for battle and growth has been shown to be able to bridge the gap between him and seasoned fighters.
10. As for better skill set, you said it yourself that Luffy’s weakness is sharp objects, Ichigo uses a FUCKING SWORD! And the effect of the spiritual pressure is just that, PRESSURE that’s exerted directly on the spirit, completely crushing. When you look at the fact that old man Yama only looked at Nano a vice captain and she couldn’t even move, let alone breathe. Aizen did the same thing to Grimjaw some who could fight on par with Ichigo and he had yet to transcend. During the fight when Aizen had transform at some point Ichigo’s dad said that Aizen’s spiritual pressure was SO high he couldn’t even measure it. Dangai Ichigo’s pressure couldn’t be measured by Aizen, and that pressure exerted on anyone… that person is gone.
11. As a side note, spiritual pressure is an indicator of how strong a person is. If the gap between two pressures is high enough damage can be completely cancelled (see kenpachi vs. Ichigo.), so if the gap between two pressures is so high that one can’t even comprehend the other… there’s no contest.
…. When you add that all up the result becomes different…end score…. 6 – 2. Ichigo wins even without a variety in attack.
1 Points
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There are a few problems with this guy’s logic. Ichigo’s strength in Dangai is for more complex when consider the following:
1. When Ichigo caught Aizen’s sword swing, he did it with ONE hand and he DIDN’T MOVE. He cancelled out all that force and power with one hand AND… most importantly did it without taking any damage.
2. When Ichigo destroyed the hills, he destroyed them without physically TOUCHING them; they were destroyed by the air pressure caused by his sword moving through the air.
3. When Ichigo first came to the soul society, he was able to block, again without moving, the swing of Jidanbo the gate keeper who can single handedly LIFT the giant gate using physical strength only.
4. Ichigo’s speed is greatly under played throughout the series, but when consider that the first time he went bankai he was able to move his hands at such high speeds that it was able deflect EVERY ONE of Byakuya’s blades. Blades that where coming at him at ALL directions!
5. The way the flash step works is never explained. It’s hard to know what his full speed is… BUT I personally think it’s not speed but rather ACCELERATION (the ability to go from stand still to LIGHT speed in the shortest time possible.). Yes I said light speed because thing about it, the first time he went bankai he was able to create multiple after images of himself. The captain of squad 2 was able to move so fast that she created more than 10 SOILD images of herself… in Dangai form Ichigo is much faster than that. Do you know how fast something needs to be moving in order for it to appear in two different places let alone more than 10…at the SAME time? To answer that question I’d have to go into great detail as to how the eye uses light to interpret objects … I won’t. All you need to know is that it’s crazy speed.
6. Destructive power. Here in order to understand just how powerful Ichigo’s attack is you need to understand spiritual pressure. In the fight with Kenpachi, it’s stated that when two pressures collide if the difference is too great, the stronger pressure can simply cancel out the damage done by the weaker one. (Ichigo even cut himself trying to cut Kenpachi.). When Ichigo’s father used getsuga on an earlier Aizen form it barely make a dent on him. Whereas in a higher transformation Ichigo spilt him in half. Not only that but when still kept going. It went through Aizen and carried on for a while.
7. When Ichigo used mugetsu, he was in the air and it still created a large damage area on the ground. That shows how far reaching the effects were.
8. Steel more durable than rock? TRUE. But is it more durable then spirit infused rock? They were fighting in the soul society remember...
9. In intelligence it’s Ichigo, not for what your reasons are, but because unlike Luffy who was tried tirelessly from a young age, Ichigo’s instinct for battle and growth has been shown to be able to bridge the gap between him and seasoned fighters.
10. As for better skill set, you said it yourself that Luffy’s weakness is sharp objects, Ichigo uses a FUCKING SWORD! And the effect of the spiritual pressure is just that, PRESSURE that’s exerted directly on the spirit, completely crushing. When you look at the fact that old man Yama only looked at Nano a vice captain and she couldn’t even move, let alone breathe. Aizen did the same thing to Grimjaw some who could fight on par with Ichigo and he had yet to transcend. During the fight when Aizen had transform at some point Ichigo’s dad said that Aizen’s spiritual pressure was SO high he couldn’t even measure it. Dangai Ichigo’s pressure couldn’t be measured by Aizen, and that pressure exerted on anyone… that person is gone.
11. As a side note, spiritual pressure is an indicator of how strong a person is. If the gap between two pressures is high enough damage can be completely cancelled (see kenpachi vs. Ichigo.), so if the gap between two pressures is so high that one can’t even comprehend the other… there’s no contest.
…. When you add that all up the result becomes different…end score…. 6 – 2. Ichigo wins even without a variety in attack.
1 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2013-08-13 09:27:56 » #1379234
There are a few problems with this guy’s logic. Ichigo’s strength in Dangai is for more complex when consider the following:
1. When Ichigo caught Aizen’s sword swing, he did it with ONE hand and he DIDN’T MOVE. He cancelled out all that force and power with one hand AND… most importantly did it without taking any damage.
2. When Ichigo destroyed the hills, he destroyed them without physically TOUCHING them; they were destroyed by the air pressure caused by his sword moving through the air.
3. When Ichigo first came to the soul society, he was able to block, again without moving, the swing of Jidanbo the gate keeper who can single handedly LIFT the giant gate using physical strength only.
4. Ichigo’s speed is greatly under played throughout the series, but when consider that the first time he went bankai he was able to move his hands at such high speeds that it was able deflect EVERY ONE of Byakuya’s blades. Blades that where coming at him at ALL directions!
5. The way the flash step works is never explained. It’s hard to know what his full speed is… BUT I personally think it’s not speed but rather ACCELERATION (the ability to go from stand still to LIGHT speed in the shortest time possible.). Yes I said light speed because thing about it, the first time he went bankai he was able to create multiple after images of himself. The captain of squad 2 was able to move so fast that she created more than 10 SOILD images of herself… in Dangai form Ichigo is much faster than that. Do you know how fast something needs to be moving in order for it to appear in two different places let alone more than 10…at the SAME time? To answer that question I’d have to go into great detail as to how the eye uses light to interpret objects … I won’t. All you need to know is that it’s crazy speed.
6. Destructive power. Here in order to understand just how powerful Ichigo’s attack is you need to understand spiritual pressure. In the fight with Kenpachi, it’s stated that when two pressures collide if the difference is too great, the stronger pressure can simply cancel out the damage done by the weaker one. (Ichigo even cut himself trying to cut Kenpachi.). When Ichigo’s father used getsuga on an earlier Aizen form it barely make a dent on him. Whereas in a higher transformation Ichigo spilt him in half. Not only that but when still kept going. It went through Aizen and carried on for a while.
7. When Ichigo used mugetsu, he was in the air and it still created a large damage area on the ground. That shows how far reaching the effects were.
8. Steel more durable than rock? TRUE. But is it more durable then spirit infused rock? They were fighting in the soul society remember...
9. In intelligence it’s Ichigo, not for what your reasons are, but because unlike Luffy who was tried tirelessly from a young age, Ichigo’s instinct for battle and growth has been shown to be able to bridge the gap between him and seasoned fighters.
10. As for better skill set, you said it yourself that Luffy’s weakness is sharp objects, Ichigo uses a FUCKING SWORD! And the effect of the spiritual pressure is just that, PRESSURE that’s exerted directly on the spirit, completely crushing. When you look at the fact that old man Yama only looked at Nano a vice captain and she couldn’t even move, let alone breathe. Aizen did the same thing to Grimjaw some who could fight on par with Ichigo and he had yet to transcend. During the fight when Aizen had transform at some point Ichigo’s dad said that Aizen’s spiritual pressure was SO high he couldn’t even measure it. Dangai Ichigo’s pressure couldn’t be measured by Aizen, and that pressure exerted on anyone… that person is gone.
11. As a side note, spiritual pressure is an indicator of how strong a person is. If the gap between two pressures is high enough damage can be completely cancelled (see kenpachi vs. Ichigo.), so if the gap between two pressures is so high that one can’t even comprehend the other… there’s no contest.
…. When you add that all up the result becomes different…end score…. 6 – 2. Ichigo wins even without a variety in attack.
1 Points
Flag
There are a few problems with this guy’s logic. Ichigo’s strength in Dangai is for more complex when consider the following:
1. When Ichigo caught Aizen’s sword swing, he did it with ONE hand and he DIDN’T MOVE. He cancelled out all that force and power with one hand AND… most importantly did it without taking any damage.
2. When Ichigo destroyed the hills, he destroyed them without physically TOUCHING them; they were destroyed by the air pressure caused by his sword moving through the air.
3. When Ichigo first came to the soul society, he was able to block, again without moving, the swing of Jidanbo the gate keeper who can single handedly LIFT the giant gate using physical strength only.
4. Ichigo’s speed is greatly under played throughout the series, but when consider that the first time he went bankai he was able to move his hands at such high speeds that it was able deflect EVERY ONE of Byakuya’s blades. Blades that where coming at him at ALL directions!
5. The way the flash step works is never explained. It’s hard to know what his full speed is… BUT I personally think it’s not speed but rather ACCELERATION (the ability to go from stand still to LIGHT speed in the shortest time possible.). Yes I said light speed because thing about it, the first time he went bankai he was able to create multiple after images of himself. The captain of squad 2 was able to move so fast that she created more than 10 SOILD images of herself… in Dangai form Ichigo is much faster than that. Do you know how fast something needs to be moving in order for it to appear in two different places let alone more than 10…at the SAME time? To answer that question I’d have to go into great detail as to how the eye uses light to interpret objects … I won’t. All you need to know is that it’s crazy speed.
6. Destructive power. Here in order to understand just how powerful Ichigo’s attack is you need to understand spiritual pressure. In the fight with Kenpachi, it’s stated that when two pressures collide if the difference is too great, the stronger pressure can simply cancel out the damage done by the weaker one. (Ichigo even cut himself trying to cut Kenpachi.). When Ichigo’s father used getsuga on an earlier Aizen form it barely make a dent on him. Whereas in a higher transformation Ichigo spilt him in half. Not only that but when still kept going. It went through Aizen and carried on for a while.
7. When Ichigo used mugetsu, he was in the air and it still created a large damage area on the ground. That shows how far reaching the effects were.
8. Steel more durable than rock? TRUE. But is it more durable then spirit infused rock? They were fighting in the soul society remember...
9. In intelligence it’s Ichigo, not for what your reasons are, but because unlike Luffy who was tried tirelessly from a young age, Ichigo’s instinct for battle and growth has been shown to be able to bridge the gap between him and seasoned fighters.
10. As for better skill set, you said it yourself that Luffy’s weakness is sharp objects, Ichigo uses a FUCKING SWORD! And the effect of the spiritual pressure is just that, PRESSURE that’s exerted directly on the spirit, completely crushing. When you look at the fact that old man Yama only looked at Nano a vice captain and she couldn’t even move, let alone breathe. Aizen did the same thing to Grimjaw some who could fight on par with Ichigo and he had yet to transcend. During the fight when Aizen had transform at some point Ichigo’s dad said that Aizen’s spiritual pressure was SO high he couldn’t even measure it. Dangai Ichigo’s pressure couldn’t be measured by Aizen, and that pressure exerted on anyone… that person is gone.
11. As a side note, spiritual pressure is an indicator of how strong a person is. If the gap between two pressures is high enough damage can be completely cancelled (see kenpachi vs. Ichigo.), so if the gap between two pressures is so high that one can’t even comprehend the other… there’s no contest.
…. When you add that all up the result becomes different…end score…. 6 – 2. Ichigo wins even without a variety in attack.
1 Points
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