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Anonymous commented at 2017-11-13 02:04:08 » #2183359
I'm looking forward to this fight ending. It was entertaining for a bit, some of Super's top animation so far, and paced really well. But Kale and Caulifla as characters still feel rushed and highly lacking - not that Dragon Ball is really famous of its depth of character. Even so, fighting and history wise, they've got jack on their resume that didn't come from this tournament. People can compare the bs portions to Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan, whoever... but deep down, its not the same and most know it.
Gohan had amazing, untapped potential. That was his whole arc, from Raditz onward. Any showing of this always lead to him getting smacked down quite shortly after. It wasn't until Cell that it really mattered, and even then, he almost screwed it up. He earned that, with years of build up. When he spent 7 years as a bookworm, and got pummeled to near death, it really was just putting him to form having the Elder Kai put him back together. Screw the method. All that happened was that we got to see what those 7 years would have led up to... and he still lost shortly after. I love Gohan, but that's him.
Goten is Goku's second son. Goku's first was a potential monster. Goten was born from a saiyajin that unlocked SSJ. Mastered it, really. So naturally, Goten was able to do this early on. The boy couldn't even fly, but did it naturally. This was okay because he was friggin' weak compared to those around him. Gohan was able to keep pace with his elders early; Goten would have done jack against most experienced fighters at the time. The tournament proved this for both Goten and Trunks, fighting against 18. They only did okay. And by the time they fused, it took training in the Chamber to make them viable as warriors. While they did handle Super Buu, it was always a losing battle and rather obvious because Buu just kept healing.
Goku drinking the spirit water is one I hear a lot lately. But in no way did anything in Dragon Ball or Z ever close a gap nearly as wide as the one presented with these girls in Super. Never. It took Goku seven years in heaven to reach level 3. Vegeta never reached it, and barely mastered 2 by being possessed. Not just achieved. Mastered. These girls may have been street toughs with potential for years, but what did they achieve during that time? Not a single SSJ transformation. They had no idea it existed. And during a single tournament, no matter how strong their base, look at the hurdles they're leaping...
I think I should be impressed, but I'm not. Am I entertained? Hell yeah! I loved some of fight scenes they had against Super, and bs or no, Kefla vs Goku isn't a crappy brawl to me. I mean... I'd rather watch Vegeta fight Toppo, but hey, whatever. I just think its stupid to defend these girls doing what they're doing by saying Dragon Ball has always been this way. That's just not true, even if it feels that way to younger viewers. Its never been deep, no. But the only true ass pull we ever got in Z was Piccolo going from King Kai's to fight Freeza's second form.
That shit was booty.
But this is about like that, only worse by years of trial and error. Anyway, rant done. I'll be watching next week, loving my guilty pleasure and wondering what excuses people will offer. It's kind of fun. Thanks for the screencap.
3 Points
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I'm looking forward to this fight ending. It was entertaining for a bit, some of Super's top animation so far, and paced really well. But Kale and Caulifla as characters still feel rushed and highly lacking - not that Dragon Ball is really famous of its depth of character. Even so, fighting and history wise, they've got jack on their resume that didn't come from this tournament. People can compare the bs portions to Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan, whoever... but deep down, its not the same and most know it.
Gohan had amazing, untapped potential. That was his whole arc, from Raditz onward. Any showing of this always lead to him getting smacked down quite shortly after. It wasn't until Cell that it really mattered, and even then, he almost screwed it up. He earned that, with years of build up. When he spent 7 years as a bookworm, and got pummeled to near death, it really was just putting him to form having the Elder Kai put him back together. Screw the method. All that happened was that we got to see what those 7 years would have led up to... and he still lost shortly after. I love Gohan, but that's him.
Goten is Goku's second son. Goku's first was a potential monster. Goten was born from a saiyajin that unlocked SSJ. Mastered it, really. So naturally, Goten was able to do this early on. The boy couldn't even fly, but did it naturally. This was okay because he was friggin' weak compared to those around him. Gohan was able to keep pace with his elders early; Goten would have done jack against most experienced fighters at the time. The tournament proved this for both Goten and Trunks, fighting against 18. They only did okay. And by the time they fused, it took training in the Chamber to make them viable as warriors. While they did handle Super Buu, it was always a losing battle and rather obvious because Buu just kept healing.
Goku drinking the spirit water is one I hear a lot lately. But in no way did anything in Dragon Ball or Z ever close a gap nearly as wide as the one presented with these girls in Super. Never. It took Goku seven years in heaven to reach level 3. Vegeta never reached it, and barely mastered 2 by being possessed. Not just achieved. Mastered. These girls may have been street toughs with potential for years, but what did they achieve during that time? Not a single SSJ transformation. They had no idea it existed. And during a single tournament, no matter how strong their base, look at the hurdles they're leaping...
I think I should be impressed, but I'm not. Am I entertained? Hell yeah! I loved some of fight scenes they had against Super, and bs or no, Kefla vs Goku isn't a crappy brawl to me. I mean... I'd rather watch Vegeta fight Toppo, but hey, whatever. I just think its stupid to defend these girls doing what they're doing by saying Dragon Ball has always been this way. That's just not true, even if it feels that way to younger viewers. Its never been deep, no. But the only true ass pull we ever got in Z was Piccolo going from King Kai's to fight Freeza's second form.
That shit was booty.
But this is about like that, only worse by years of trial and error. Anyway, rant done. I'll be watching next week, loving my guilty pleasure and wondering what excuses people will offer. It's kind of fun. Thanks for the screencap.
3 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2017-11-13 05:43:42 » #2183373
Caulifla was introduced as a gang leader having potential and power then Renso, who Cabba thought was stronger than him. She learned SS2. She fought fodder. Her only significant fights was against Goku, who was first holding back to train her and then had his stamina drained, but she ultimately lost and was forced to fuse. She was never shown as stronger than him.
Kale is Broly.
1 Points
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Caulifla was introduced as a gang leader having potential and power then Renso, who Cabba thought was stronger than him. She learned SS2. She fought fodder. Her only significant fights was against Goku, who was first holding back to train her and then had his stamina drained, but she ultimately lost and was forced to fuse. She was never shown as stronger than him.
Kale is Broly.
1 Points
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Meeyalein commented at 2017-11-13 10:13:10 » #2183391
It's pretty easy to gauge the U6 Saiyajin's powers:
Cabba could fight toe to toe with a post SSB Vegeta in his base form, you could even argue that he had a chance at winning.
Caulifla and Kale should be roughly the same power level as Cabba, if not stronger in physical power only, although they are brawlers and not martial artists yet.
So the U6 Saiyajins in their base form are at least as strong as Vegeta and Son-Goku in their base form at the tournament's begin.
SSJ transformations for U6 should be roughly the same power up as for our U7 Saiyajins. Maybe they are even stronger though.
So it's not a stretch that two SSJ2+ level women can fight with a drained Son-Goku.
1 Points
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It's pretty easy to gauge the U6 Saiyajin's powers:
Cabba could fight toe to toe with a post SSB Vegeta in his base form, you could even argue that he had a chance at winning.
Caulifla and Kale should be roughly the same power level as Cabba, if not stronger in physical power only, although they are brawlers and not martial artists yet.
So the U6 Saiyajins in their base form are at least as strong as Vegeta and Son-Goku in their base form at the tournament's begin.
SSJ transformations for U6 should be roughly the same power up as for our U7 Saiyajins. Maybe they are even stronger though.
So it's not a stretch that two SSJ2+ level women can fight with a drained Son-Goku.
1 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2017-11-13 16:14:33 » #2183448
The stretch I find laughable, Meeyalein, isn't that two SSJ2+ levelers can handle a drained Son Goku.
No. The issue is, how does a Saiyajin reach the level of Vegeta and Goku's base and never encounter SSJ. It's highly odd and just not easy to believe by any means. Saying it is so doesn't mean it flows properly. Considering what we've seen throughout all of Dragon Ball to this point, the U6 Saiyajins have little understanding of combat as a whole, let alone their own heritage. Caulifla is a brawler, so the pacifist angle doesn't really apply like it does for Cabba, who is the only one who seems to have sensible scaling out of the three. Kale is meek and was until recently not at all someone who has likely spent years of their life chasing after skill and power in any meaningful way except to stand beside her "sister".
I would say the girls' base is stronger than Cabba's. Sure. That's fine. But the extents by which they are skating via potential alone is so far-fetched that it pales entire decades of training and real battle experience. Even if they have histories we're unaware of, never reaching any of the obviously achievable points they've done in this tournament has nothing to do with guaging their powers.
I don't need anyone to tell me they can compete with Goku. I can see that much myself. That doesn't mean its sensible, or comparable to the events in Dragon Ball many use as an excuse. And I don't think it makes the fights or story any less fun to watch.
It's not a matter of how they got this strong. Its how they got this strong with so little performance quality via visual example. They all three of them lack serious battle experience, and the series itself has all but thrown this in our face multiple times. But we're then asked to accept that their mere potential allows them to just blow past those who've spent so long becoming what they are? Even if the power ups were considerably stronger, there's a lot that doesn't add up right and is obviously forced.
I'm just saying that accepting that should be easy for most everyone, and letting it interfere with enjoying the show seems silly to me, as does trying to provide excuses for it with headcannon or comparisons to Goten, Trunks, or ect. Dragon Ball isn't famed for its wonderful writing, but these girls are on a Spirit Bomb Sword level of come-the-fuck-on. ^_^ But the series rolls nicely enough so I'm fine with watching it for what it is. If you feel it makes sense, well, okay.
1 Points
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The stretch I find laughable, Meeyalein, isn't that two SSJ2+ levelers can handle a drained Son Goku.
No. The issue is, how does a Saiyajin reach the level of Vegeta and Goku's base and never encounter SSJ. It's highly odd and just not easy to believe by any means. Saying it is so doesn't mean it flows properly. Considering what we've seen throughout all of Dragon Ball to this point, the U6 Saiyajins have little understanding of combat as a whole, let alone their own heritage. Caulifla is a brawler, so the pacifist angle doesn't really apply like it does for Cabba, who is the only one who seems to have sensible scaling out of the three. Kale is meek and was until recently not at all someone who has likely spent years of their life chasing after skill and power in any meaningful way except to stand beside her "sister".
I would say the girls' base is stronger than Cabba's. Sure. That's fine. But the extents by which they are skating via potential alone is so far-fetched that it pales entire decades of training and real battle experience. Even if they have histories we're unaware of, never reaching any of the obviously achievable points they've done in this tournament has nothing to do with guaging their powers.
I don't need anyone to tell me they can compete with Goku. I can see that much myself. That doesn't mean its sensible, or comparable to the events in Dragon Ball many use as an excuse. And I don't think it makes the fights or story any less fun to watch.
It's not a matter of how they got this strong. Its how they got this strong with so little performance quality via visual example. They all three of them lack serious battle experience, and the series itself has all but thrown this in our face multiple times. But we're then asked to accept that their mere potential allows them to just blow past those who've spent so long becoming what they are? Even if the power ups were considerably stronger, there's a lot that doesn't add up right and is obviously forced.
I'm just saying that accepting that should be easy for most everyone, and letting it interfere with enjoying the show seems silly to me, as does trying to provide excuses for it with headcannon or comparisons to Goten, Trunks, or ect. Dragon Ball isn't famed for its wonderful writing, but these girls are on a Spirit Bomb Sword level of come-the-fuck-on. ^_^ But the series rolls nicely enough so I'm fine with watching it for what it is. If you feel it makes sense, well, okay.
1 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2017-11-13 16:36:20 » #2183450
Also, Kale being Broly is exactly right. I absolutely agree. Scaling wise, she's not meant to really make sense, and like her sister, the series isn't interested or going to waste time on her history just to appease the fans. She's just going to be as powerful as she needs to be to be amazing, and we're to accept it the same way we accepted Broly, a short movie, in a series that will likely end sooner than any iteration of Dragon Ball has. So, yes, I agree.
Caulifla has been fighting fodder. Also agreed. I imagine it has always been the case, until I see reason to believe otherwise. The only reason so far to disagree would be her reaching SSJ2 with such ease, with such a short period of training in the middle of a tournament. I'm glad she's stronger than Krillin. I don't want them to be weak characters. There's no reason they had to be introduced with so little reasoning to help us aptly believe that either U6 gal can compete with the likes of Son. None. But that's how it is. Some people think it reasonable, others don't. I personally don't, because all I've seen her go up against is weaklings, including a damaged Goku, which means the series is low-key wanking of Son and treating these girls like scrubs, or they aren't and we're back to scaling and premise being all but absent.
Saying Goku is still tired, but then using Kaioken Blue shows he could reach max power, not max stamina; his stamina was garbage, yes, but we have no reason to think he can use that form without also increasing his power, and there was obvious need. Ki Control? Sure. But even so, that's a leap, seeing as how that's not some easy thing to manipulate, especially if he's recovering.
There's no sense making excuses for what we're seeing. That's my opinion. It's just meant to be mindlessly enjoyed, and I choose to do so, because when I stop to think about it, so little makes sense without fans drawing conclusions with or without any substance beyond assumptions of past, training, experience, and so on. And claiming Z is always like that is the easy go-to, even when it isn't at all accurate because Z had a longer run time to deal with things like this, and did so. Not always well, but at least they tried. Super isn't even going to try, and we all should know that by now. Doesn't really mean shit if you still like the series. Nothing wrong with that.
2 Points
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Also, Kale being Broly is exactly right. I absolutely agree. Scaling wise, she's not meant to really make sense, and like her sister, the series isn't interested or going to waste time on her history just to appease the fans. She's just going to be as powerful as she needs to be to be amazing, and we're to accept it the same way we accepted Broly, a short movie, in a series that will likely end sooner than any iteration of Dragon Ball has. So, yes, I agree.
Caulifla has been fighting fodder. Also agreed. I imagine it has always been the case, until I see reason to believe otherwise. The only reason so far to disagree would be her reaching SSJ2 with such ease, with such a short period of training in the middle of a tournament. I'm glad she's stronger than Krillin. I don't want them to be weak characters. There's no reason they had to be introduced with so little reasoning to help us aptly believe that either U6 gal can compete with the likes of Son. None. But that's how it is. Some people think it reasonable, others don't. I personally don't, because all I've seen her go up against is weaklings, including a damaged Goku, which means the series is low-key wanking of Son and treating these girls like scrubs, or they aren't and we're back to scaling and premise being all but absent.
Saying Goku is still tired, but then using Kaioken Blue shows he could reach max power, not max stamina; his stamina was garbage, yes, but we have no reason to think he can use that form without also increasing his power, and there was obvious need. Ki Control? Sure. But even so, that's a leap, seeing as how that's not some easy thing to manipulate, especially if he's recovering.
There's no sense making excuses for what we're seeing. That's my opinion. It's just meant to be mindlessly enjoyed, and I choose to do so, because when I stop to think about it, so little makes sense without fans drawing conclusions with or without any substance beyond assumptions of past, training, experience, and so on. And claiming Z is always like that is the easy go-to, even when it isn't at all accurate because Z had a longer run time to deal with things like this, and did so. Not always well, but at least they tried. Super isn't even going to try, and we all should know that by now. Doesn't really mean shit if you still like the series. Nothing wrong with that.
2 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2017-11-13 21:17:14 » #2183504
I certainly am not saying that. I'm not sure why anyone would. But they're greenhorns by a wide margin, by association with the little amount of exposition they've been given and what we've been shown. To assume anything else is just that. An assumption. Their base levels are, all three of them, somehow capable of achieving at least SSJ, yet throughout all their supposed history to achieve this level of power, they've never unlocked it. And when Kale and Caulifla did so, as it happens, they've both astounding prodigies with little more than a brute's background.
Really, I'd equate their whole showing to that of most Dragon Ball Z villains, with about as much sense to them as the Androids competing against SSJ from human stock with cyborg parts. No training required. Minimal history offered. Mark, set, go. That's how I take them, because that's how they're delivered. By level, I'd personally have expected their base forms to be whatever justifications we were given; we were given very little, yet sure... I'd say putting them at Raditz level is fucking stupid. Even with little to no exposition proving them to be rough around the edges by leaps and bounds.
1 Points
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I certainly am not saying that. I'm not sure why anyone would. But they're greenhorns by a wide margin, by association with the little amount of exposition they've been given and what we've been shown. To assume anything else is just that. An assumption. Their base levels are, all three of them, somehow capable of achieving at least SSJ, yet throughout all their supposed history to achieve this level of power, they've never unlocked it. And when Kale and Caulifla did so, as it happens, they've both astounding prodigies with little more than a brute's background.
Really, I'd equate their whole showing to that of most Dragon Ball Z villains, with about as much sense to them as the Androids competing against SSJ from human stock with cyborg parts. No training required. Minimal history offered. Mark, set, go. That's how I take them, because that's how they're delivered. By level, I'd personally have expected their base forms to be whatever justifications we were given; we were given very little, yet sure... I'd say putting them at Raditz level is fucking stupid. Even with little to no exposition proving them to be rough around the edges by leaps and bounds.
1 Points
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Anonymous commented at 2019-06-22 01:23:57 » #2397257
Plague has the answers you seek www.youtube.com/watch?v=B...NY7Q1kO7vqG4r&index=3
1 Points
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Plague has the answers you seek www.youtube.com/watch?v=B...NY7Q1kO7vqG4r&index=3
1 Points
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